Well i know that 4 or 5 of the teachers at Lynsie's school had babies. I dont know any thing about how they did it. but maybe my wife can find out. And this really blows chunks.. You are right big D. it does not seem right for that to happen. for her not to get paid for not being able to work 1 day... COME ON. Whos that asshole that made that rule... Problay not a women. I will have my wife check in to it. on of her good friends is a teacher that had a baby last year.

Welcome to realization of why women like Denise and myself are so militant about women's rights... no one talks as much about the present-day inequities in our society but boy do they still exist. Now add in our stupid president trying to take away our right to choose.... okay, so let's make all pregnancies result in a baby but let's still not provide the mother with a means to raise it.

Okay, off on a tangent... that sucks. Yes, it is like that everywhere. Remember, women only get maternity leave because it's the law...

I guess Denise will just have to strap the baby on her back and teach that way! Maybe she can make a statement like that. Bastards.

Dear Brian,
Congratulations to you and your wife on your pregnancy!! Remember, a baby is always a blessing. And yes, the economics of pregnancy is a problem for everyone. However, you'll work it out. We have four kids and, in retrospect, everything seemed overwhelmingly expensive when we first started. But once you get used to the expenses, they just become a normal part of everyday life. You do without a little here and there and it works out. Even for myself (an OB nurse) the breaks are few and far between - from the pediatrician to the hospital bill. (We paid cash for our last two kids).

Additionally, you and your wife probably qualify for WIC. The income limits are really high. And you can at least have the relief of the expense of formula. (It's the formula and diapers that drive you back into the workforce!) She should look into it.

Further, on the comments about removing a woman's right to choose. I have a ton of thoughts and comments on this topic that I don't have time to write here. Suffice it to say that, contrary to your friend's comments, a woman continues to have the right to choose. She can choose birth control, she can choose adoption, and less realistically, she can choose abstinence. She can even choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy within the first twelve weeks. Although I am vehemently (sp?) opposed to this choice, I think it is at least humane to make the decision to terminate as early as possible.

Perhaps your friend has not been educated about the horrors of partial birth abortion? During this procedure, Laminaria is placed in the woman's cervix, taking usually about three days of repeated application, to achieve cervical dilitation. The baby is then turned, if necessary, to be delivered feet first. The body is delivered and then the base of the baby's scull is punctured with hemistats or other sharp object, and the contents of the skull are suctioned out. Therefore, the delivery can be completed and the baby will be dead.

I have to say that I am not positive, but my understanding is that in some states, this procedure had been allowed up to term. But I know for a fact that it was being done as late as 28 weeks. That's seven months, folks. We see 28 week infants survive all the time - even without handicaps and/or deficits. The arguement that liberals put forth about saving the mother's life - let me tell you. Any obstetrical "emergency" that can wait four days to be resolved - is not an emergency. So don't give me that.

You don't have to raise it - there are plenty of folks who would be happy to do that for you.

But what is wrong with a society whose mothers think they would more easily get over murdering their infant (or "doing away with it" or however you want to phrase it...) than having the baby and surrendering it for adoption?

Whatever her decision - don't ask me to pay for it. I am shocked to learn that Medicaid pays for abortions in some cases. Additionally, many of the insurance carriers covering our military personnel provide for abortions as well. Your tax dollars at work. :(

Good luck with your baby.

Concerned,
Ginger

I am a free-thinking, very well educated woman who still supports EVERY woman's right to choose, whatever that choice may be. I don't preach to those who are pro-life, I simply state my position. In return I find that I am attacked by those who wish to make that personal decision for every woman in the world. Choose birth control (which often fails) or choose adoption (yeah, that's a super-easy option) or simply deny your natural instincts and just don't have sex!!! How unrealistic is that??? What if you're married, can't take the pill, are allergic to condoms, can't afford to get your tubes tied and aren't at a place where you can have a baby? Those options don't apply. (Unless all you married guys out there are willing to accept abstinence as well!!) I get sick of hearing about all of the "choices" women have; there are MILLIONS of unwanted babies in other countries - why is that? Why don't all of these pro-lifers provide homes for those children? If abortion was such an open option, do you think there would be that much childhood starvation in the world? Do you really think there would be THAT MUCH STARVATION in our own frigging country???? If this country supported mothers even a LITTLE bit, then maybe I'd sway a bit... but for pete's sake, Denise can't even get decent benefits, and they SHOULD NOT have to get on WIC to have a damned baby! What in the HELL DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THIS COUNTRY???

I also haven't heard a good argument for forcing a woman to carry a child of rape or incest. No one seems to be able to argue that point.

We pro-choice women get accused all of the time of being hardened and uncaring, when the truth of the matter is that we care more about life than most of the pro-lifers out there. We actually care about the quality of life and having a healthy existence as opposed to just existing because the "bible" says it should be so.

I'm curious to know how the morning-after-pill is sitting with the pro-life community.

Yes, I am VERY educated on the partial-birth procedure so readily and incorrectly portrayed by our media. The religous zealots and hard-core republicans have made sure that everyone believes that all abortions are performed as such. The true statistic is that this procedure is NOT performed that often, and when so, it is done on girls not old enough to have babies to begin with, and almost always in association with a severe birth defect. And to add fuel to that argument - if there are that many medical doctors in this country willing to perform such a procedure, then what does that truly say about our medical care, our medical profession, which is supposedly regarded as the best in the world?? I know several woman who have had abortions and you know what? None of them had that procedure and all of them had it done early.

Education is the key here. Not blind following of what the media says. I don't buy what the media says or what I read in the newspaper. Instead I choose to find out the truth.

I am in full support of Denise and Bryan's decision to have a baby! We hope to travel down that road ourselves one day soon. But I am also at a point in my life where I can provide for a child. I have also been at points in my life where I could not, and would have exercised my right to choose had I needed to. It is not my government's decision to make and it is certainly not my neighbor's; it is between me, my husband and my doctor. Period.

I wanted to say one more thing about the abortion issue. First of all, I don't think that this particular comment space is the place for it. It's an argument no one wins, and one that often fuels more fights and battles than any other. I am vehemently pro-choice; that does not mean I support partial-birth abortions, but it really annoys me that that's all anyone can talk about, instead of stating what happens more often than not: early termination. People assume that others are not "educated" on the procedure when it simply is not so. I am a doctor and I know all about it. I still make up my own mind and make my own decisions despite what the media tries to feed me.

And, as for medicare paying for it - well now, perhaps I resent people who use WIC or other welfare to feed their kids - why should I pay for that? That is THEIR responsibility. My point is that an argument can be made for either side.

RU486 was a blessing to this country. It ends the problem of late termination and turns it into what it should be... a well monitored decision between a woman and her doctor that has been proven safe.

Anyway, if anyone wants to debate the abortion issue anymore, why don't we at least post to the forum and not take up comment space?

Whoa Deb! I am not attacking you. I'd like you to read my comments again. I was not preaching to you. Many of your replies to my comments were overly-defensive and some of them were WHAT I SAID! My intention was not to threaten your education status.

If you feel that I attacked you, I cannot be responsible for what you feel. I can only tell you that you are mistaken.

If you're a doctor, then you know the efficacy rate of oral contraceptives is 98-99%. And the list goes down from there, the least effective birth control measure being 93-94%. And yes, many women have trouble taking the pill, many others are allergic to spermicides, and others still cannot tolerate latex. A woman, who is eligible for Medicaid and is at least 21, can have her tubes tied - free of charge. I didn't suggest that reproductive management was simple!

I SAID "less realistically, she can choose abstinence".

Your sarcasm about adoption being a "super-easy option" is EXACTLY the attitude I'm talking about when I wonder what woman thinks abortion would be easier than adoption...

You're right about children in other countries (and ours, for that matter) needing homes. The reason this household doesn't have an adopted child (or ten) is that it costs about $20,000 to get one from another country. Do not think that I, for one, have not contacted at least 3 national/international adoption agencies offering to provide a HOME for a child, rather than a pair of shoes or $.45/day (or whatever).

Your right about Denise's benefit status. Insurance is a racket altogether. It should be more affordable to have a child. This last baby was very difficult on us financially. And, although I see you wouldn't approve, my comments regarding WIC were strictly informative for Denise and were not intended to express my approval or disapproval of the situation. This is a resource available to her.(Are we going to admonish Mead-Johnson for charging $23 per can of Nutramagen formula, which lasts one week? Just curious)

After a rape or incest, IT IS MY OPINION that a woman has the RESPONSIBILITY to seek medical attention. As a doctor, surely you are familiar with the post-rape work-up. You know that it involves the administration of oral medications, which prevent implantation and/or terminate pregnancy. Additionally, a D&C is usually performed, which would remove the uterine lining required to sustain a pregnancy. If the woman goes through all this - and we are going to disagree here, I'm going to use the "G" word - and a baby is still produced, God has a plan for that child. Please refer to my comments regarding her option to surrender the child for adoption.

We tried to adopt a baby that I delivered a few years ago. Her mother was 23 and this was her second child to give up for adoption. In retrospect, it is apparent that she went to great lengths to hide her pregnancy from family and friends - I do not believe that her husband even knew she was pregnant (I know, how does THAT happen). Anyway, she chose not to terminate the pregnancy and I have always admired her for that. I don't believe I have ever wondered, until this moment, whether that child was a product of rape or incest. I can honestly say that all I knew was that I loved her and I wanted her from the moment her mom said I could have her. And if I discovered that she needed a home today, I would take her without reservation. If I can say that with four sleeping children in the other part of the house, I am sure that those longing for a child feel the same way in magnitude.

I do not think my views on abortion came from the Bible. Nor did my views on child abuse, child molestation, elderly abuse, violent crime, rape, theft, murder, or any other social abominations occurring today. Oh, maybe the foundation is from the Bible, but don't all faiths teach basic decency and respect for human life? I'm not being sarcastic, I really wonder - is there a denomination that teaches the contrary?

And I DARN sure didn't get my views on partial birth abortion from the media. In fact, knowing the truth about partial birth abortion, I stood in awe and disgust as I listened to politicians and women's rights activists talk about the need to keep this as an option to "save a mother's life". As I said before, as a doctor, you know that any obstetrical emergency that can wait four days is not an emergency.

Girls "not old enough to have babies to begin with?" By whose criteria? Did your Mother Nature goof by allowing her to conceive? Be careful with this.....

Put your anger aside and let me tell you a story. At the hospital I worked at in Lufkin, we were preparing to deliver a Trisomy 21 infant. Everybody was somber - family and all - because we all knew about the defect. Amniocentesis had confirmed it. We were getting a Down's kid. Do you know we got a perfectly normal baby? What if that couple had terminated that pregnancy due to a birth defect???? I mean, c'mon. Ya either see an extra chromosome on the 21st allelle, or ya don't, right? Well, something happened, because neonatal testing showed the baby to be genetically perfect. Something happened....

I am glad that all of your friends who had abortions had them early. You will notice in my original comment that I listed that as an option for women and I further stated that I feel early termination is, at least, humane.

I think I'm ok with the use of the morning after pill. Barring something I don't know about it - my understanding is that it's taken within a day or two of unprotected sex, right? Thus, preventing implantation, like an IUD. Yeah, this pro-lifer is cool with that.

I didn't "assume" anything about your knowledge of the partial birth abortion procedure. Again, I only addressed that issue, since that's the only thing President Bush has banned.

It is MEDICAID, not MEDICARE, which provides for indigent healthcare in this country, Dr. Taranik.

You're right about feeding one's children being their responsibility. However, unless you have personally had an abortion on Medicaid, my initial comments about not wanting to pay for it were not directed at you. I am therefore, puzzled by your overly-defensive stance. The WIC comment was FYI for Bryan and Denise. Just a resource at thier disposal. Strictly informational, not judgemental. And in no way intended to demonstrate my approval or disapproval of their access to insurance benefits.

Finally, I do not know how to post to the Forum. I am a nurse, not a computer operator:):) But if you would like to discuss this further, I will try to figure it out.

Thanks,
Ginger Kalafatis

Whoa Deb! I am not attacking you. I'd like you to read my comments again. I was not preaching to you. Many of your replies to my comments were overly-defensive and some of them were WHAT I SAID! My intention was not to threaten your education status.

If you feel that I attacked you, I cannot be responsible for what you feel. I can only tell you that you are mistaken.

If you're a doctor, then you know the efficacy rate of oral contraceptives is 98-99%. And the list goes down from there, the least effective birth control measure being 93-94%. And yes, many women have trouble taking the pill, many others are allergic to spermicides, and others still cannot tolerate latex. A woman, who is eligible for Medicaid and is at least 21, can have her tubes tied - free of charge. I didn't suggest that reproductive management was simple!

I SAID "less realistically, she can choose abstinence".

Your sarcasm about adoption being a "super-easy option" is EXACTLY the attitude I'm talking about when I wonder what woman thinks abortion would be easier than adoption...

You're right about children in other countries (and ours, for that matter) needing homes. The reason this household doesn't have an adopted child (or ten) is that it costs about $20,000 to get one from another country. Do not think that I, for one, have not contacted at least 3 national/international adoption agencies offering to provide a HOME for a child, rather than a pair of shoes or $.45/day (or whatever).

Your right about Denise's benefit status. Insurance is a racket altogether. It should be more affordable to have a child. This last baby was very difficult on us financially. And, although I see you wouldn't approve, my comments regarding WIC were strictly informative for Denise and were not intended to express my approval or disapproval of the situation. This is a resource available to her.(Are we going to admonish Mead-Johnson for charging $23 per can of Nutramagen formula, which lasts one week? Just curious)

After a rape or incest, IT IS MY OPINION that a woman has the RESPONSIBILITY to seek medical attention. As a doctor, surely you are familiar with the post-rape work-up. You know that it involves the administration of oral medications, which prevent implantation and/or terminate pregnancy. Additionally, a D&C is usually performed, which would remove the uterine lining required to sustain a pregnancy. If the woman goes through all this - and we are going to disagree here, I'm going to use the "G" word - and a baby is still produced, God has a plan for that child. Please refer to my comments regarding her option to surrender the child for adoption.

We tried to adopt a baby that I delivered a few years ago. Her mother was 23 and this was her second child to give up for adoption. In retrospect, it is apparent that she went to great lengths to hide her pregnancy from family and friends - I do not believe that her husband even knew she was pregnant (I know, how does THAT happen). Anyway, she chose not to terminate the pregnancy and I have always admired her for that. I don't believe I have ever wondered, until this moment, whether that child was a product of rape or incest. I can honestly say that all I knew was that I loved her and I wanted her from the moment her mom said I could have her. And if I discovered that she needed a home today, I would take her without reservation. If I can say that with four sleeping children in the other part of the house, I am sure that those longing for a child feel the same way in magnitude.

I do not think my views on abortion came from the Bible. Nor did my views on child abuse, child molestation, elderly abuse, violent crime, rape, theft, murder, or any other social abominations occurring today. Oh, maybe the foundation is from the Bible, but don't all faiths teach basic decency and respect for human life? I'm not being sarcastic, I really wonder - is there a denomination that teaches the contrary?

And I DARN sure didn't get my views on partial birth abortion from the media. In fact, knowing the truth about partial birth abortion, I stood in awe and disgust as I listened to politicians and women's rights activists talk about the need to keep this as an option to "save a mother's life". As I said before, as a doctor, you know that any obstetrical emergency that can wait four days is not an emergency.

Girls "not old enough to have babies to begin with?" By whose criteria? Did your Mother Nature goof by allowing her to conceive? Be careful with this.....

Put your anger aside and let me tell you a story. At the hospital I worked at in Lufkin, we were preparing to deliver a Trisomy 21 infant. Everybody was somber - family and all - because we all knew about the defect. Amniocentesis had confirmed it. We were getting a Down's kid. Do you know we got a perfectly normal baby? What if that couple had terminated that pregnancy due to a birth defect???? I mean, c'mon. Ya either see an extra chromosome on the 21st allelle, or ya don't, right? Well, something happened, because neonatal testing showed the baby to be genetically perfect. Something happened....

I am glad that all of your friends who had abortions had them early. You will notice in my original comment that I listed that as an option for women and I further stated that I feel early termination is, at least, humane.

I think I'm ok with the use of the morning after pill. Barring something I don't know about it - my understanding is that it's taken within a day or two of unprotected sex, right? Thus, preventing implantation, like an IUD. Yeah, this pro-lifer is cool with that.

I didn't "assume" anything about your knowledge of the partial birth abortion procedure. Again, I only addressed that issue, since that's the only thing President Bush has banned.

It is MEDICAID, not MEDICARE, which provides for indigent healthcare in this country, Dr. Taranik.

You're right about feeding one's children being their responsibility. However, unless you have personally had an abortion on Medicaid, my initial comments about not wanting to pay for it were not directed at you. I am therefore, puzzled by your overly-defensive stance. The WIC comment was FYI for Bryan and Denise. Just a resource at thier disposal. Strictly informational, not judgemental. And in no way intended to demonstrate my approval or disapproval of their access to insurance benefits.

Finally, I do not know how to post to the Forum. I am a nurse, not a computer operator:):) But if you would like to discuss this further, I will try to figure it out.

Thanks,
Ginger Kalafatis

See what I mean? I just posted this reply twice. Sorry.
ginger

Ginger, I will have to reply to this in depth a little later - 6am is just too early for this much deep thought. :)

However, I do want to say that it is very nice to read a post with ideas presented in such a manner. We all tend to type fast and spill stuff out without good explanations, and that is obviously what has happened between you and I. It is fine and dandy for us to be on opposite sides on certain issues; that is what makes this country so great.

I will reply soon. Thanks for the great post!

Ginger, I made a title in the forums called Baby Crises and put my reply there....

Outstanding post Ginger. Thank you.